Notice on door: Welcome to MACPRO's *FIRST* regularly scheduled open
discussion on Inside Macintosh! These will take place every Thursday from now
on, at 9:30pmEDT. When you enter the RTC, use the /NAMe command like this:
"/nam Ralph" (without the quotes, of course!)
21:22EDT 07/02/87
Sub: Minutes of your RT Conference.
From Steno: Jennifer Marlowe
Attendees:
[[Rod] REVERETT]
[[John] J.F.DAVIS]
[[JIM] J.SKINNER]
[[Scott] S.BLANCHETTE]
[[Frank] WPFRANK]
[[Brian] CMUG]
[[Louis] L.JERKINS]
[JERRY]
[[B.C.] CAMAI]
[[Shayne] S.BRADLEY]
[[Spence] JPSPENCER]
[[charlie] C.BOARD]
[JACQUIE]
[[Bill] W.MARRIOTT]
Minutes:
<[Brian] CMUG> How're y'all?
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> Just fine... and you? Is INSIDE MAC on the agenda tonight?
<[PETE] PPOITRAS> THAT'S WHAT THE NOTICE SAID.
<[Brian] CMUG> oh, ducky. I'm in California and my copy of IM is in Houston. Oh well. Yeah. Open discussion on IM.
<[Brian] CMUG> We're here early, and usually these things don't get going until 5-10 minutes after the specified time.
<[Brian] CMUG> I expect 20-30 people will show up.
<[Brian] CMUG> Have y'all been in CMUG or MACPRO RTC's before?
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> this is my first time. I'm doing program development on the mac, and have some questions.
<[Brian] CMUG> What language?
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> Turbo Pascal
<J.F.DAVIS> My first RTC too, Just fishing for that onea new idea...
<[Brian] CMUG> It'd be a good idea to type your questions ahead of time in MockWrite, miniWriter, etc., and then paste the question to the screen at the appropriate time. Remember tho - max of 255 chars in one line.
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> I hate to admit it, but I'm using an IBM for this conference. I'll use sidekick...
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> no, I'll use superkey macros. a bit faster...
<[Brian] CMUG> Smartass.. (ducking). Naw - I use PC's every now and then for this stuff.
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> I'm lazy... whatever gets the job done the fastest...
<[Brian] CMUG> Before everybody shows up, are there any questions, problems with GEnie, etc.?
<[PETE] PPOITRAS> Brian,what are my chances of getting ito FREESOFT when I don't have any RR products?
<[PETE] PPOITRAS> (But I want some....)
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> is there anyplace on GEnie where there are text files of Turbo Pascal code that I can download?
<[Louis] L.JERKINS> Are there going to be many changes in the new GEnie releases?
<[Brian] CMUG> Pete, slim. Send a note to MACINFO, maybe he'll let you in. Jim, in MACPRO. BORLANDTURBOPAS.PIT
<[PETE] PPOITRAS> OK thanks.....could I get RRHost here or not?
<[Brian] CMUG> That's in FREESOFT RT, Pete.
<[PETE] PPOITRAS> OK...thanks for answering...bye.
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> I saw that. Can't dl it to my IBM though... much harder to get the mac hooked to a modem. Oh, well. thanks.
<[Brian] CMUG> Try the IBM area. Harder to hook the Mac? Whyzzat?
<[Brian] CMUG> Folks, as usual, this thing is gonna start about 5 mins late. Hang in there! (I dunno why, but people always show up 5-10 mins late for these things!)
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> brian, just schedule the ameetings for 9:20!
<[Louis] L.JERKINS> Brian is RRHost shareware? I saw something the other day that indicated that it has never been shareware.
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> I only have an internal IBM modem. Can't hook it to the mac. To use the mac, I'll have to go to a friend's house. Hoped to dl it to IBM and study it.
<[Brian] CMUG> Louis, no. At first, it was a value-added product, an accessory to Ryder. Now it's a seperate product.
<[Brian] CMUG> Not a bad idea, Jim!
<[Brian] CMUG> DL it XMODEM to the PC, string up a null-modem cable (try the ImageWriter I cable) from the PC to the Mac, then do an XMODEM xfer to the Mac. Don't need a modem.
<[charlie] C.BOARD> hi.I'm new here, do i just type in what i have to say?
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> don't have a serial port on my IBM, Brian.
<[Louis] L.JERKINS> Hi Charlie!
<[Brian] CMUG> Jim, are you familiar with the expression "S.O.L."?
<[Brian] CMUG> heh heh
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> Yea, I know.....
<[Brian] CMUG> pokepoke
<[Brian] CMUG> 'lo Charlie! Yeah, you've got it!
<[charlie] C.BOARD> thanks.
<[Brian] CMUG> 'lo Jim
<[Brian] CMUG> As usual, folks are late showin' up.
<[Jim] JPSPENCER> Hi all
<[Brian] CMUG> How've you been, Jim?
<[Jim] JPSPENCER> Very busy
<[Brian] CMUG> 'lo Jacquie
<JACQUIE> hi brian
<[Brian] CMUG> Got yer questions ready? As usual, folks are late showin' up!
<JACQUIE> dIo you think that companies will develop higher 'level tools eliminating the need to completely understand the toolbox?
<W.MARRIOTT> (hello)
<[Brian] CMUG> I'll bet people ask you if they can spend the night over all the time.
<[Brian] CMUG> No. As the interface raises to the higher levels of interaction, the code itself will likely slow down. For speed, folks will continue to dig into the nuts and bolts of the toolbox.
<[Brian] CMUG> That's what I think, ennyhoo.
<[Brian] CMUG> OK, well rats. Some folks I'd asked to show up and help out are later than usual.
<[Brian] CMUG> Sorry, folks. Go ahead and start throwing the ball around.
<[charlie] C.BOARD> i was wondering about that too
<[Brian] CMUG> Paul Snively has a good answer for that. So does Darin Adler. Unfortunately, neither is here!.
<JACQUIE> brian, so what else is new
<[Brian] CMUG> heh heh
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> do you know much about how windows work, Brian?
<[Brian] CMUG> Justa sec - I'm gonna check my luggage, see if I can find my bloody copy of IM.
<[Brian] CMUG> In what way, Jim?
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> here's my question-
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> I have a question about scrolling windows. I don't quite understand the principle involved. I know about the values stored to keep track of the scrolling, but where is the screen information itself sitting?
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> How to you tell the Toolbox where that info is, or how do you <[Brian] CMUG> You draw the info to an offscreen bitmap, then copybits that sucker back to the display screen.
<[Spence] JPSPENCER> I've got whiat I think is a simple one but its driving me nuts
<JACQUIE> so far there's IM 1-5, how can you determine what parts of it are outdated?
<[Brian] CMUG> The offscreen bitmap is like another window, but it's not in therange of view of the display.
<[Brian] CMUG> JACQUIE, none of them are, as long as 128K Macs with 64K ROMs are out there.
<[charlie] C.BOARD> Is #5 out now? Haven't seen it yet
<[JIM] J.SeKINNER> Brian, let's say I got info in an array, and want to display that info on a scrolling window. Just copy it to the window record area? The concept seems to be fuzzy, dispite repeated readings....
<JACQUIE> If I just want to develop for the new Macs(+ and up) do I still have to read all the volumes?
<[Brian] CMUG> Right, Jacquie. If you're vaguely familiar with 1-3, I'd go thru them in reverse order.
<[Spence] JPSPENCER> Yes Jacquie. Vol IV was just an upgrade for the Plus and V is the same for the II
<[Brian] CMUG> Jim, the problem is purely conceptual. It's not all that darned hard to implement, just hard to explain.. Lemme think of an anology..
<[Brian] CMUG> (Scratching mah little haid)
<[Bill] W.MARRIOTT> what about books like Macintosh Revealed? or would you stick with IM....? Can Mac Revealed be an adequate substitute for IM? and what kind of introductory materials are available?
<[Brian] CMUG> Bill, not a substitute. I use Mac Revealed all the time when IM seems too terse..
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> I've been using Mac Revealed. It seems to cover the same territory.
<[charlie] C.BOARD> Mac revealed helped me quite a bit on clearing up obtuse sections of IM.
<[Brian] CMUG> (In fact, I'm thumbing thru it right now so I can find an easier way to explain the offscreen bitmap stuff I was talking about.
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> me too...
<[Bill] W.MARRIOTT> but even mac revealed seems to be pretty steep....
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> I'll second that, Bill.
<JACQUIE> is Knaster's book worth getting?
<[Brian] CMUG> Hey there are no experts in this area, certainly not me. Open discussion here, y'all can ask each other stuff while I'm getting this answer ready!
<[Bill] W.MARRIOTT> where is there a reference for a programmer who's experienced, but not with the Mac Toolbox?
<J.F.DAVIS> Knaster's book is great for debugging, ie TMON..
<[Brian] CMUG> Jacquie, I have it - and I think Bill might benefit from it, judging from his question; but I didn't find it too helpful.
<[Brian] CMUG> JF, good point. The debugging chapter is helpful. I amend my earlier statement.
<[Bill] W.MARRIOTT> i mean, everything jumps from "here's the FILE menu, use it to O-P-E-N a file to..... really complex stuff....
<[Brian] CMUG> (Still prepping an answer)
<[charlie] C.BOARD> What type of book is Knaster's?
<[Brian] CMUG> "How to Write Macintosh Software", Apple Press.
<JACQUIE> Is there a best place to buy IM 1-5 (price wise that is)
<[Brian] CMUG> Jackie, Crown Books has good price on it. (flipping pages)
<[charlie] C.BOARD> I think MacConnection's about $18 a pop (don't quote me)
<[Bill] W.MARRIOTT> is anyone out there using Turbo Pascal for the Mac?
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> I am, Bill.
<[Brian] CMUG> OK, hmm. Jim, tell me where you're at so far with the scrolling.
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> That's where I'm stuck.. that's what I'm asking Brian.
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> I also need help with File I/O, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it...
<[Bill] W.MARRIOTT> jim: how do you like it? i found the manual fairly difficult.
<[charlie] C.BOARD> What's the I/O question?
<[Brian] CMUG> File I/O's a piece of cake (unless Borland did something funny. I don't have TurboPascal)
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> the manual was hard until I went through it with the computer.
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> Well, I am doing a type of data base. It will be working with probably 50-70k of data. I'm not sure wheither to play with it in memory, or do disk i/o.
<JACQUIE> Jim, if it's only 50 to 70 K play with it in memory
<[Spence] JPSPENCER> Is this an appropriate place to ask a question about MPW?
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> the MYDEMO.PAS file is full of nice things that get you going once you get the hand of it.
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> Thanks Jacquie..
<[Brian] CMUG> It's the right place, but I'm the wrong person to ask. Anybody out there MPW knowledgeable?
<JACQUIE> Spence, Harry Chesley and Paul Snively use it alot
<[Spence] JPSPENCER> Well this may not be really a problem with MPW so I'll give it a shot
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> another quick question re I/O. do you have to do anything special to send info to a Laserwriter, or can you work it just like sending to an imagewriter?
<[Bill] W.MARRIOTT> the mydemo.pas file is still a little over my head. i'd love to find just a little program that put one window up and then quits. something i can digest by itself
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> Bill, take it a chunk at a time. Try modifying the menus, like they say in the book. Then, try making a new menu with the resouce file.
<[Spence] JPSPENCER> I just received MPW and tried porting a program from The Complete book and have been unable to get the darn thing to work.
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> I wish they had included the code for READ.ME. that would have told me tons about scrolling and such.
<[Spence] JPSPENCER> For some reason I'm getting an address error when _GetNewWindow is called. The problem doesn't seem to be in the Resource file as it is setting up the menus
<JACQUIE> Spence, if you don't find an answer here tonight send mail to CHESLEY
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Jim, are you a member of APDA yet?
<[Spence] JPSPENCER> OK.Thanks. I've left a message on the board too
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> Bill, maybe we can stay in touch with GEMail as we get better at this....
<[Bill] W.MARRIOTT> jim: i would like that.
<[Spence] JPSPENCER> Yes Shayane
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> Shayne, what's APDA?
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> There is a disk available with examples that might be of help.
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> oh, ok.. Apple programmers developer...
<[charlie] C.BOARD> How much is the example disk?
<[Spence] JPSPENCER> I've gone through every example.
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> not really. Might be a good idea, though. Just doing this one custom program for a client. Don't know what else I might do.
<[Spence] JPSPENCER> It looks like my code is OK. The problem is trying to figure out a way to debug it. All I've got is MacsBug
<[Brian] CMUG> Macsbug.. Might as well use a dartboard.
<[Spence] JPSPENCER> Don't I know it now.
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> How much is APDA?
<[Spence] JPSPENCER> Something like $20 per year
<[Brian] CMUG> Well, crapola. High, everybody! The guy in the corner with egg on his face is Brian Ebarb. grrr..
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Charlie, the disk is $10, APDA is $20
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> Thanks, Shayne.
<[Brian] CMUG> Shayne, what do you code in?
<[Spence] JPSPENCER> Don't sweat it Brian
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Mainly MPW Pascal and Asm, but a little C when one of the other guys has trouble
<[charlie] C.BOARD> I noticed a thread on BB about online programming classes. Has the concept died?
<[Brian] CMUG> Shayne, Jim's having trouble conceptualizing offscreen bitmaps and using copybits to scroll the viewrect. Got an idea how to explain the concept?
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Well, the easiest way to think of offscreen bitmaps is to think as the screen as a window into memory
<[Brian] CMUG> Charlie, nope. John Pence and I have discussed this, in conjunction with (I think) MacTutor. Hold yer breath, it's coming.
<[charlie] C.BOARD> One of those "flip-books" you had as a kid?
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> All an offscreen bitmap is is a portion of the screen that is not visible. Is that of any use?
<[Louis] L.JERKINS> Brian, do you have any remote idea of a time frame?
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> Let's say you're scrolling through 10 pages of MacWrite. The other 9 pages are: a. in memory b: in Quickdraw grafport c: on the screen image memory that's (I think) 1400 pixels big. d. none of the above...
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Actually, a little bit of all of them.
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> Even better example. You have a README program, and a README file that contains ascii text of the info you're displaying on the window with the program. How does the program get that info from disk to a scrolling window?
<[Brian] CMUG> Louis, I'm going to Houston in a few days, will talk to John about it then. I should have some sort of an announcement within a week or two (I'm glad y'all reminded me!!)
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> The compressed format that Macwrite stores a document in is kept partially in memory.
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Jim, the easiest way to do that would be to create a TERec, shove the text into the record with TESetText, then you can use TEScroll to scroll the text in the displayed area.
<[Louis] L.JERKINS> Thanks Brian. I look forward to your announcement.
<[Brian] CMUG> Shayne, is the offscreen rect as long as the document, and scrollrect slides up and down the offscreen rect; copybits takes the info from the offscreen rect and pops it into the viewport?
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> Thanks, Shayne, I'll ponder on that and see what I come up with. You got me going in the direction I need to go.
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Lets start at the beginning. You read your text from the document into a Handle. Good enough then.
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Brian, that would be one way of doing it. I'm not very familiar with how the CoreEdit routines worked.
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Actually, as slow as MacWrite is I doubt that they use that method at all.
<[Brian] CMUG> I think MacWrite crunches the formatting of the text (fonts, etc.) as it updates. I've gotten drunk waiting for a screen update in that program.
<[Brian] CMUG> But, for a simple text window, one without a lot of fancy font work, the sliding-scrollrect on a document-sized offscreen bitmap would seem to be the fastest, I would think.
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> Is there a limit to that text size, Brian? Is it a memory limit, or something in Quickdraw/screen pixels?
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> It would probably depend on the spacing and size of the bitmap that is to be copied.
<[Brian] CMUG> My problem is I learned hi-level coding first, and now I have a tough time with these basics. 32K per record in TEdit, Jim.
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> Thanks, Brian.
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> The main limit on text size in word processors is that they store the font size as a signed byte, thus limiting it to 127 pt.
<[Brian] CMUG> Well, look at a common example, a terminal program. 9-pt Monaco. (Pulling out the calculator)
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> RR stores up to 50 pages of 9 point text. And can scroll through it. He must be using another way to store the info...
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> The calculation would depend on the number of characters per line. Base it on the per character bitmap v.s. Offscreen bitmap to be moved.
<[Larry] LHALFF> I just posted this as a topic, but I was wondering if anyone here knew about cdev's?
<[Brian] CMUG> For new folks, jump in. None of the folks I asked to be here to help out with the tech Q&A has shown yet, so this is an open discussion.
<[Brian] CMUG> 80*24 (in the viewrect)
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> scrolling windows....
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Be back in a sec, will jump into TMON and check.
<[Brian] CMUG> (actually, 84 chars, the extra for special formatting within the line, but WTH)
<[Justin] J.CONNOR> This is my first RTC, what does it mean "so and so" is the stenographer?
<[Brian] CMUG> Justin, that is an automatic session recorder I've activated. It allows me to post minutes of the RTC in the software library.
<[Brian] CMUG> So, any other Pascal coders among the group, besides Jim and Shayne?
<[glenn] G.G.THOMPSON> Can I meet Jennifer?
<[Larry] LHALFF> I use MPW Pascal + LS and TML
<[Spence] JPSPENCER> I'm learning slowly
<[charlie] C.BOARD> I'm learning using Lightspeed
<[John] J.F.DAVIS> I do a little with TML, mostly I work in FORTRAN
<[Larry] LHALFF> Does an INIT programmed in MPW need some sort of header?
<[Brian] CMUG> No, Jennifer's under my desk right now.
<[Justin] J.CONNOR> Thanks for the info, I always wondered about that!
<[Spence] JPSPENCER> I've been using TML but just got MPW
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> Lucky Brian. No wonder so many distractions... (smile)
<[glenn] G.G.THOMPSON> sounds like fun
<[Larry] LHALFF> I LOVE MPW!
<[Spence] JPSPENCER> Larry are you using the Asm too?
<[Brian] CMUG> Larry, I dunno. I'm afraid the folks who would know didn't show up. At least not yet!
<[Larry] LHALFF> I do heavy AI programming using Object Pascal, and boy does it speed things up!
<[Larry] LHALFF> I don't know assembly language <blush>.
<[Spence] JPSPENCER> I've got a conversion problem from MDS to MPW that is driving me nuts
<[Larry] LHALFF> Right know I am working on a 'Neural Network Construction Set", which allows..
<[charlie] C.BOARD> John, which fortran do you use. Would you recommend it?
<[Larry] LHALFF> peopel to build simulations of Neural Networks with great ease, in the privacy of their own homes.
<[glenn] G.G.THOMPSON> can anyone suggest a good and <easy?> way to learn C
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Larry, the INIT does not need a special header, but there is a need for a small amount of assembly
<[Larry] LHALFF> Shayne, what do I need to know?
<[John] J.F.DAVIS> MS FORTRAN, yes if you have existing source and no real toolbox needs.
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> K&R is the only way, from what I heard. I have the Sybex 'Using MAc Toolbox w/ C book' - I use it to clarify many of my pascal books. It's very well put together.
<[Brian] CMUG> I've just recieved lit on MACTRAN77, looks interesting compared to MS's version. Slower tho.
<[John] J.F.DAVIS> The quickdraw capability is there in FORTRAN, but little else in detail
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Larry, get a copy of Tech note #110, it goes into great detail as to how to do it.
<[Larry] LHALFF> Thanks, in fact, I can pull it out right now.
<[Brian] CMUG> Great. OH! Thanks for reminding me! I'll be uploading the LONG-MISSING tech notes shortly.
<[Larry] LHALFF> Ohhh... this Tech note is good.
<[Brian] CMUG> BTW - while I've got y'all here: here's your opportunity to kick my patoot about MACPRO. Any changes y'all'd like to see, any gripes?
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> anyone know if there's anything special about programming printing on a laserwriter vs. an imagewriter, or is it all handled by the system drivers?
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Another note for those that check for key codes, bit and out all unwanted bits, as the high order word is now used for ADB on the SE and II
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Jim, if you are just opening up a printer port and using the standard print dialogs, there should be no difference.
<[Larry] LHALFF> I think that it is goign pretty well, but I have not been able to use it enough recently to give any gripes.
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> My only complaint was that we never had any conferences
<[Brian] CMUG> Well, this is a funny start - but they'll be regular from now on.
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> My only suggestion for MACPRO is to be able to call up text file tutorials on programming topics. No code- just info. it could be contributed piece by piece from the MACPRO users.
<[Larry] LHALFF> Cute, the people don't show up, isn't it, huh?
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Brian, do you know the dates for MacWorld off hand?
<[charlie] C.BOARD> Compared to brand CIS this is a dream. Be nice if there were one BIG file with all the tech notes in the DL (is there?)
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> Aug 11-13, I think.
<[Ned] E.HORVATH> That's right, Jim, aug 11-13.
<[Larry] LHALFF> One MacWorld Expo I won't be sad to miss (I'll be in Scotland).
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Charlie, it would be less expensive to get them from APDA
<[charlie] C.BOARD> thanks,Shayne
<[Larry] LHALFF> I just picked up my copy of the Programmers Online Companion. I like it despite the interface, and especially since I have been able to customize my dictionary to hold all the MPW Tool information.
<[Brian] CMUG> Jim, that sort of thing is in the works. When I get back to Houston in a couple of days I'll sit down with John Pence and we'll hash over the details.
<[Brian] CMUG> Jim: After re-reading your note, that's what I intended the MACPRO BB to provide, but I let it get out of hand. It's going to be a helluva job getting it back to where it belongs, but I have to do it. Slow, but it'll get done.
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> I checked there, and didn't find that much along the lines I meant. The problem being that if someone solved something, they never let others know about it.
<[Jim] JIM.RICH> The wife's foot is stamping... I must go now. I'll try to be on time next week.
<[rosco] R.YAHNKE> anyone want to tackle a question about MacDraw and LARGE PICT files??
<[Brian] CMUG> That's just it. I need to go back in there and rename topics that have been solved to show that they HAVE been solved.
<JACQUIE> I have a question about cable show on Fourth Dimension on FNN. What is the name of the show on FNN and what time will it show on the West Coast?
<[JIM] J.SKINNER> Well, thanks to all for a very informative evening. Take care, all!
<[Brian] CMUG> Jackie, I'd bet DIEDREMALLOY would know. She provides online support for Acius here. She's on practically every night. (maybe now?)
<JACQUIE> brian, has she been around tonight ??
<[Brian] CMUG> Probably in CMUG
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Rosco, you had a question about PICT files?
<[rosco] R.YAHNKE> yessir, using a scanner at 300 dpi, what software is good for editing a large image, say the original is 8 x 11?
<[Brian] CMUG> Shayne, you'd by chance have a commented code example for the offscreen bitmap method you were describing earlier?
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Possibly Canvas, thats a tough one since I haven't done much work with scanners. Brian, I might, hang on a second...
<[Brian] CMUG> Letraset is coming out with a product for that. Realist, I think it's called. Check the RSG3RTC.TXT file in the CMUG SL's.
<[rosco] R.YAHNKE> MacDraw breaks down on PICT files over 200K or so...
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Brian, check TN #41. Im not sure if that will be enough for what you want or not
<[Brian] CMUG> I looked at it - and it's a bit rough for the language I'm using (Which I'm embarrassed to admit to)
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Rosco, Aldus just come out with a new format for saving pictures that might be useful. Brian, which language are you using?
<[Brian] CMUG> ZBasic. Like I said, I learned the wrong language first.
<[rosco] R.YAHNKE> A PageMaker format? I don't know alot about PageMaker, can you do simple graphics editing?
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Not really, but it saves a gray scal rather than a bitmap.
<[Brian] CMUG> But, I'm using raw ROM calls for the grafport stuff.
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Brian, that is a tough one.
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> How do you allocate the memory for the bitmap?
<[Brian] CMUG> Yeah. Some things are great, but the compiler (at least my version) has so many bugs in the toolbox interface that things simply don't work when they should. Icons are a pain, believe it or not.
<[Brian] CMUG> Had to use PICTs and InvertRects to simulate them (because PlotIcon bombs every time in ZBasic). A monstrous pain in the pooter.
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Brian, Im not sure that there is an easy way.
<[Brian] CMUG> If there was, everybody'd be doing it, right? (grumble, grumble..)
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> If you want tough try tackling an external file system!
<[Brian] CMUG> Hey! Did I just come up with a grand idea for a programming contest or what??!
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Or at least an easy way to get code examples
<[Brian] CMUG> A code generator for scrolling windows! Enter yer handle names, windows, all tthat crud, specify Pascal, MPW, C, Basic, whatever, and the thing spits out the code for the specification. Hmm..
<JERRY> lots of excitement here
<[Rod] REVERETT> Open question, what's the latest version of ResEdit?
<JERRY> 1.1
<[Rod] REVERETT> Know where I can get it?
<[Rod] REVERETT> in CMUG?
<[Brian] CMUG> What's the version here? 1.1D3, ain't it? (guessing). ResEdit's here in MACPRO.
<JERRY> 1.0d I think
<[Brian] CMUG> huh. I'd go look, but we'd lose the steno. (so what, from the gallery)
<[B.C.] CAMAI> and she is cute
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Latest Version that I have is 1.1b1
<[Brian] CMUG> Where'd you get it? Here?
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> No, with the 2.0b1 release of MPW
<[Brian] CMUG> It's hard to keep track of version numbers for all the files I have to remember about. Yup, I think that's a good-sounding excuse.
<[Brian] CMUG> Lots of old-timers popping in.
<[Frank] WPFRANK> Anyone know how to make a MacNifty sound file into a 'snd ' resource?
<[Brian] CMUG> See if THIS one stumps Shayne!
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Frank, do you have MPW?
<[Frank] WPFRANK> no.
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Brian, you remember all those beeps I uploaded for the II?
<[Brian] CMUG> Bloody hell! Yer right!
<[B.C.] CAMAI> bumper sticker I have : Mac programmers do it in theWindow
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Frank, do you have any Resource compilers at all?
<[Brian] CMUG> BC, I want one!
<[Frank] WPFRANK> RMaker? But, maybe that's a little primitive.
<JERRY> Anyone know where to get Finder 6.1??
<[B.C.] CAMAI> I have seen Finder 6.0 but not 6.1
<[Brian] CMUG> Not me, Jerry.
<[Brian] CMUG> What's diff about 6.0?
<[Brian] CMUG> The 6.0 I saw was a ResEdit hack.
<[B.C.] CAMAI> not much more goodies for SE and II and Appletalk
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> It might work. You would have to save the sound file as a text file with the numbers.
<[Frank] WPFRANK> From "SoundCap"?
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Yes, I think that that is one of the formats
<[B.C.] CAMAI> had options for desktop and back/foreground colors
<[Rod] REVERETT> Boy, call waiting can be rude!!!!!
<[Brian] CMUG> Have you tried ATDT*70,nnn-nnnn?
<[Rod] REVERETT> No, is that what is needed?
<[Brian] CMUG> Yeah.
<[Brian] CMUG> You may need two commas in a row.
<[Rod] REVERETT> I'll try it.
<[Frank] WPFRANK> How would you do it in MPW, a res. compiler option?
<JERRY> things are really picking up now
<[Brian] CMUG> 'lo Norm
<[B.C.] CAMAI> who brought the donuts?
<[Brian] CMUG> Ontario, eh?
<[norm] NR.GALL> yup
<[Rod] REVERETT> Boy, poor Jim Baker, take home pay of only $500,000. (Sorry, watching CNN)
<[Brian] CMUG> For the new folks, this first of the regular MACPRO RTC's didn't come off as planned, so this is an open discussion on programming.
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Be back in a sec, checking on the layout
<[Frank] WPFRANK> thanks.
<[B.C.] CAMAI> anyones hear of RLE graphics apps?
<[Rod] REVERETT> How about RR on the II?
<[Brian] CMUG> Sure. RLE's all over the place.
<[Brian] CMUG> RR on a II bombs.
<[Frank] WPFRANK> It does? I am operating that right now.
<[Rod] REVERETT> Not entirely. But close.
<JERRY> I have a joke, What's the difference between Vanna White and a letter from the president of CNN??
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Brian, not if you turn the instruction cache off of the 68020
<[B.C.] CAMAI> on the Mac?
<[Frank] WPFRANK> It just has a few problems (like, the clock doesn't work, the macros key don't autoload.)
<[Rod] REVERETT> It only takes a small portion of the screen.
<[Frank] WPFRANK> maybe 10.0bd, but not 9.4
<JERRY> Anybody want to know?
<[Brian] CMUG> Huh. I'll have to sneak back over and try 9.4
<[Scott] S.BLANCHETTE> Sure Jerry, I'm game
<[Frank] WPFRANK> Shayne, so there is no way to convert it in ResEdit(1.0.1)
<JERRY> One's a Letter Turner and ones a Turner Letter
<[Scott] S.BLANCHETTE> Ha Ha Ha [as I fall off my chair, and head to the fridge for another beer...
<[B.C.] CAMAI> what comm software is everyone using?
<JERRY> RR
<[Frank] WPFRANK> rr94
<[Brian] CMUG> Coffee COMM
<[Scott] S.BLANCHETTE> InTouch
<[B.C.] CAMAI> termworks here
<[Rod] REVERETT> RR 9.4
<[Frank] WPFRANK> Has anyone seen a ResEdit template for the 'ictb'resource?
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> OK Frank, here it comes, and yes, If you have the sound as a resource you can edit it, but it can be messy
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> The first word must be $0001
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> The next word tells how many synth records there are, followed by the synth resources for the synth and modifiers. Actually make that the ID for those resources
<[Frank] WPFRANK> How would I get it from a SoundCap file to 'snd ' ?
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> After that is a word telling how many commands follow. Each command is 8 bytes.
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> What you would have to do is to convert the sampled sound data to a resource of type 'snd ' First.
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Once you have accomplished that you have to place the header information that I was describing in front of the data
<[Frank] WPFRANK> With ResEdit, ok?
<[Frank] WPFRANK> I've got that stuff captured, I just add it to the beginning, copy, and paste into snd res?
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Basically. Not quite that simple though.
<[Frank] WPFRANK> how do I know how many commands there are (or where did you get this info?)
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> For a complete description take a look at page 373 of Inside Mac V. 5
<[Frank] WPFRANK> Aha!
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Well, almost complete. You also need some information from the include files that come with MPW 2.0b1
<[Frank] WPFRANK> Mine doesn't have numbered pages, only numbered for each chapter, not all together.
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> OK, page 15 of the sound manager chapter
<[Frank] WPFRANK> thanx
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> In addition to the header information you will need to place a SoundHeader in front of the sound data.
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Not quite stumped yet, Brian
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> Frank, did you send me some mail about 2 weeks ago?
<[Frank] WPFRANK> Regarding what?
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> How to create snd resources?
<[Frank] WPFRANK> No, I just got my ][ yeaterday, before that I had Sytem 3.2
<[Shayne] S.BRADLEY> I uploaded some beeps in the CMUG area, you might want to check them out.
<[Frank] WPFRANK> ok, thanks for the info!
<[Glenn] G.G.THOMPSON> its raining, POURING in denver
<[Brian] CMUG> Thanks for stopping by, folks! It's been fun!
